I think you handled this intelligently with your usual good grace and humor. So bravo to you. AI in the arts is an automatic DQ for me. If you want to use it find a cure for cancer, I'm all for it but stay out of my pocket. I was recently asked to write liner notes for a project type of band and my first question was: did you use AI for any of it?
Thanks, man! The whole situation put me in a pretty weird spot in my head. I wrote most of this on Saturday when it happened, but then went out of town and low level stressed about it for a couple of days (didn't ruin the trip, but it was definitely running in the background).
Hi Stuart. I read all of your posts from Remember The Lightning and often come way being introduced to new music. When I listened to Hoverborg, I didn't come away impressed and didn't pursue them further. I found the lyrics related the girl referenced in the song as off-putting. Not because women singing about other women is off-putting, but because from my point of reference that's not typically how they write about each other so to find out it was written by a male is not surprising. I must have caught something as being disingenuous and then dismissed them.
Props to you about being open to what happened. I'm in favor of trusting our gut when it comes to new music. If something rings un-true, it likely is.
I think we all relate with the sentiment that there's hope of young all female bands with similar interests to us. All the more reason to celebrate those that do exist:)
Did you like The Misfits less when you found out Glen played all the instruments? Did you stop listening to Sex Pistols when you found out Sid doesn't play on the record? Or when Mick Taylor had to come in and do all the guitar parts on all the best Stones records...? Or when Josh Freeze came in and played all the drums on the TSAR album?** Whenever a band is recording, they deconstruct the art of making music and turn it into a mathematical endeavor almost devoid of feeling. What is a band? Is Hoverborg any less a band than Gorillaz or Shonen Knife or The Donnas or The Monkees or The Banana Splits? With AutoTune and the like, singers don't even have to hit the right notes, just get it in the ballpark. The actresses in the video are real, the lyrics were written by Dianne Warren (or anyone), and the vocals were sampled/built from a real vocal. It's a slippery slope.
Where were the vocals sampled from, was there an ur-singer who provided basic sounds? When you hear a string accompaniment in a song and find out it was played on a synth and not using real stringed instruments, how does it affect the enjoyment of the music?
It's a Gordian knot. We rely heavily on VFX in visual media, and it's not just monsters and spaceships, but seemingly anodyne things like removing neck wrinkles, digitally painting out bald spots, removing camera crew in reflections of windows, and so on. AI models are trained on human output. Is an AI sucking up the post-Green Day rock world and spitting out Hoverborg all that far off from Oasis hoovering up Bowie and The Beatles? All music (and maybe art) is a collage or a Voltron of different elements. The guy behind the band wrote the lyrics, but if he had used a prompt asking the AI to write the lyrics as well, it just means we're in a simulation of reality.
There was a section of Kraftwerk's live show where the curtain raises and on stage are the animatronic versions of the band members. They move slowly, robotically, and the song is playing as if they are playing the music. The crowd roared at this point, I think realizing that digital music that doesn't require technique can be played by pushing a button, and here Kraftwerk were not only emphasizing it but reveling in it. What is real?
Thanks, Paul. I really appreciate the additional perspective. I think I understand most of what you said intellectually, but it felt strange to confront it in the context of my little music newsletter. I should have been prepared for it, but I just...wasn't.
All that is, of course, not to say that I like AI or that I liked the Hoverborg song. I think AI used this way is soul killing. To me, that song sounded as mediocre as most poppy punk. I'm a lyrics guy. I think the reliance on VFX is killing movies and the sneaky usage of AI in music related projects is going to make it impossible for bands to make a living (why license a song when you can get AI to do a knock off?). Even Blake triple tracking his vocals on Dear You didn't sit right with me because it was a simulacrum of what he really sounded like. I feel we're swimming against the tide on this one, though. This is the bizarro world hellscape that Steve Albini warned us about.
I think the scary part of all of this is that several of us heard this album and literally had NO idea it was AI. I can usually spot AI writing instantly, but with music, apparently I've got much to learn. You're right: We can never be 100% certain these days that a piece of music was fully created by humans. I will say that getting punked like this has caused me to put my guard up. With any new band/artist that comes along, I will be asking myself, "Are these really humans?" I can't even be mad about what Hoverborg has done since it's really a huge wake-up call.
In retrospect, there were a few things that seemed off, but that made the band even more interesting to me. The question "Is this an AI band?" just simply wasn't on my mind. It is now, but I'm still not sure what exactly that means.
I think ignoring some of those "off" things was where I really errored. I noticed the band's previous EP was inspired by message board posts from 2003....when the supposed band members would have been like seven years old. Yet the possibility of AI never crossed my mind. Woops.
The thing about Lybrand himself struck me most: the goal of the AI pimps is to make their creatures so indistinguishable from human works that we have to question every level of a new thing to see if it's a ruse or not.
That's a lot of work; and they know we'll tire of it at some point.
Skip it; support your local live human bands instead.
Believe me I am right with you on all of this, and the feelings you had. I said many of the exact same things to myself and friends just in wondering where we are now when it comes to AI. I absolutely loved the album, it definitely ticked a lot of boxes for me and the sound was just right. I spoke with Phillip as well, as part of the documentary, and I was quite disturbed by it but tried/am trying to have an objective mind about it.
It's definitely made me reevaluate what I listen to as a consumer and what even matters to me. I'm a huge naysayer of AI graphic art it drives me nuts when I see it, but this album absolutely hooked me, right from the start, and even now knowing it's origin I still like it despite it being AI. What does that say, I don't know. Is this even air we're breathing?
Ya. I just interviewed a band today and actually asked if their songs or recordings were AI-generated (Their paraphrased response: "Fuck AI music."). I'm still not sure whether most people will care or not, but it feels like I should at least give readers a heads up if I can—probably because I'm clinging to older ideas about what does/doesn't count as real music. I do think I'll be even more proactive about doing my small part to support human art, but can I like both? Again, more questions than answers for the time being.
FWIW "Even now knowing it's origin I still like it despite it being AI." reminds me of the steak scene in The Matrix.
I think you handled this intelligently with your usual good grace and humor. So bravo to you. AI in the arts is an automatic DQ for me. If you want to use it find a cure for cancer, I'm all for it but stay out of my pocket. I was recently asked to write liner notes for a project type of band and my first question was: did you use AI for any of it?
Thanks, man! The whole situation put me in a pretty weird spot in my head. I wrote most of this on Saturday when it happened, but then went out of town and low level stressed about it for a couple of days (didn't ruin the trip, but it was definitely running in the background).
Hi Stuart. I read all of your posts from Remember The Lightning and often come way being introduced to new music. When I listened to Hoverborg, I didn't come away impressed and didn't pursue them further. I found the lyrics related the girl referenced in the song as off-putting. Not because women singing about other women is off-putting, but because from my point of reference that's not typically how they write about each other so to find out it was written by a male is not surprising. I must have caught something as being disingenuous and then dismissed them.
Props to you about being open to what happened. I'm in favor of trusting our gut when it comes to new music. If something rings un-true, it likely is.
I think I really wanted their to be a younger, all-female Nerf Herder in Pittsburgh. Hoisted by my own Geek Rock petard.
The thing that made me scratch my head was the "Escape From New York" song, which is why I asked about it. But damn—I got fooled, for sure.
I think we all relate with the sentiment that there's hope of young all female bands with similar interests to us. All the more reason to celebrate those that do exist:)
How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go, Neo?
I don't really wanna.
Did you like The Misfits less when you found out Glen played all the instruments? Did you stop listening to Sex Pistols when you found out Sid doesn't play on the record? Or when Mick Taylor had to come in and do all the guitar parts on all the best Stones records...? Or when Josh Freeze came in and played all the drums on the TSAR album?** Whenever a band is recording, they deconstruct the art of making music and turn it into a mathematical endeavor almost devoid of feeling. What is a band? Is Hoverborg any less a band than Gorillaz or Shonen Knife or The Donnas or The Monkees or The Banana Splits? With AutoTune and the like, singers don't even have to hit the right notes, just get it in the ballpark. The actresses in the video are real, the lyrics were written by Dianne Warren (or anyone), and the vocals were sampled/built from a real vocal. It's a slippery slope.
Where were the vocals sampled from, was there an ur-singer who provided basic sounds? When you hear a string accompaniment in a song and find out it was played on a synth and not using real stringed instruments, how does it affect the enjoyment of the music?
It's a Gordian knot. We rely heavily on VFX in visual media, and it's not just monsters and spaceships, but seemingly anodyne things like removing neck wrinkles, digitally painting out bald spots, removing camera crew in reflections of windows, and so on. AI models are trained on human output. Is an AI sucking up the post-Green Day rock world and spitting out Hoverborg all that far off from Oasis hoovering up Bowie and The Beatles? All music (and maybe art) is a collage or a Voltron of different elements. The guy behind the band wrote the lyrics, but if he had used a prompt asking the AI to write the lyrics as well, it just means we're in a simulation of reality.
There was a section of Kraftwerk's live show where the curtain raises and on stage are the animatronic versions of the band members. They move slowly, robotically, and the song is playing as if they are playing the music. The crowd roared at this point, I think realizing that digital music that doesn't require technique can be played by pushing a button, and here Kraftwerk were not only emphasizing it but reveling in it. What is real?
**just kidding.
Thanks, Paul. I really appreciate the additional perspective. I think I understand most of what you said intellectually, but it felt strange to confront it in the context of my little music newsletter. I should have been prepared for it, but I just...wasn't.
** That's an insult to Josh Freese! 🤣
All that is, of course, not to say that I like AI or that I liked the Hoverborg song. I think AI used this way is soul killing. To me, that song sounded as mediocre as most poppy punk. I'm a lyrics guy. I think the reliance on VFX is killing movies and the sneaky usage of AI in music related projects is going to make it impossible for bands to make a living (why license a song when you can get AI to do a knock off?). Even Blake triple tracking his vocals on Dear You didn't sit right with me because it was a simulacrum of what he really sounded like. I feel we're swimming against the tide on this one, though. This is the bizarro world hellscape that Steve Albini warned us about.
I know, right? But “Dear You” is still the best Jawbreaker record. Conundrum!
Is Hoverberg less of a band? Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes. In the instigators own words just 1s and 0s.
I think the scary part of all of this is that several of us heard this album and literally had NO idea it was AI. I can usually spot AI writing instantly, but with music, apparently I've got much to learn. You're right: We can never be 100% certain these days that a piece of music was fully created by humans. I will say that getting punked like this has caused me to put my guard up. With any new band/artist that comes along, I will be asking myself, "Are these really humans?" I can't even be mad about what Hoverborg has done since it's really a huge wake-up call.
In retrospect, there were a few things that seemed off, but that made the band even more interesting to me. The question "Is this an AI band?" just simply wasn't on my mind. It is now, but I'm still not sure what exactly that means.
I think ignoring some of those "off" things was where I really errored. I noticed the band's previous EP was inspired by message board posts from 2003....when the supposed band members would have been like seven years old. Yet the possibility of AI never crossed my mind. Woops.
You’re only human.
The thing about Lybrand himself struck me most: the goal of the AI pimps is to make their creatures so indistinguishable from human works that we have to question every level of a new thing to see if it's a ruse or not.
That's a lot of work; and they know we'll tire of it at some point.
Skip it; support your local live human bands instead.
Believe me I am right with you on all of this, and the feelings you had. I said many of the exact same things to myself and friends just in wondering where we are now when it comes to AI. I absolutely loved the album, it definitely ticked a lot of boxes for me and the sound was just right. I spoke with Phillip as well, as part of the documentary, and I was quite disturbed by it but tried/am trying to have an objective mind about it.
It's definitely made me reevaluate what I listen to as a consumer and what even matters to me. I'm a huge naysayer of AI graphic art it drives me nuts when I see it, but this album absolutely hooked me, right from the start, and even now knowing it's origin I still like it despite it being AI. What does that say, I don't know. Is this even air we're breathing?
Ya. I just interviewed a band today and actually asked if their songs or recordings were AI-generated (Their paraphrased response: "Fuck AI music."). I'm still not sure whether most people will care or not, but it feels like I should at least give readers a heads up if I can—probably because I'm clinging to older ideas about what does/doesn't count as real music. I do think I'll be even more proactive about doing my small part to support human art, but can I like both? Again, more questions than answers for the time being.
FWIW "Even now knowing it's origin I still like it despite it being AI." reminds me of the steak scene in The Matrix.
Oh my god, I have become Cypher!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
hahahahaha