Interview: Dan Epstein
Discussing The New Redd Kross Book, 'Now You're One Of Us'
When it comes to writing about longtime “underground sensations” like Redd Kross, it takes just the right partner to bring their incredible 45+ year story to life.
Jeff and Steven McDonald found the perfect accomplice in Dan Epstein, a longtime fan who was ready, willing and eager to take on the challenge. Epstein is an award-winning music journalist who has written for Rolling Stone, SPIN and Revolver, in addition to publishing books including Big Hair and Plastic Grass: A Funky Ride Through Baseball and America in the Swinging ‘70s.
“I knew that if I opened social media someday and saw another music journalist announcing that he or she was collaborating on a book with Redd Kross, I would have been PISSED—like, ‘Goddammit, that was supposed to be MY book!’ So, even though there was no guarantee that a publisher would pick it up and I'd get paid for it, I busted my ass to write the best book proposal possible,” Epstein told me for the interview below.
Lucky for legions of diehard Redd Kross fans, a U.K. publisher understood Epstein’s vision.
“Omnibus Press bought it and decided to give it a US release, as well; they were also confident enough in the story I'd sketched out that they pretty much left us to get on with it, and didn't insert themselves into the process or try at all to re-shape what we eventually gave them,” Epstein said.
The result is a definitive chronicle of the band’s improbable journey from garage punks and masters of ‘70s kitsch to alternative rock trailblazers and, finally, revered scene veterans who are still at the top of their game. Now You’re One Of Us is part of a yearlong Redd Kross celebration that includes the band’s self-titled, double album and Andrew Reich’s documentary, Born Innocent: The Redd Kross Story.
I caught up with Epstein by email to discuss how this project came together and what he learned during interviews with the McDonald brothers. I also asked for his five favorite Redd Kross songs (“as of today…”), which are embedded throughout the interview—plus one bonus track from their latest album, Redd Kross.
Dan Epstein Interview
Congrats on the new book. How did this project come together?
Dan Epstein: Thank you! The ball originally got rolling in June 2022, when I interviewed Steve McDonald for FLOOD magazine—the topic was the 35th anniversary reissue of the Neurotica album. It was a really fun and interesting interview, and it caught the eye of Lee Sobel, a book agent with whom I'd previously worked on a couple of attempted projects that never got off the ground. Lee originally approached Steven (who has had a very interesting life and career in addition to Redd Kross) about doing his own memoir, but it quickly morphed into the idea of a Redd Kross project.
I think Jeff and Steven were a little confused at first by Lee's suggestion of me as their co-author, because in the book world I'm better known for writing about baseball; they were also concerned that the ‘70s-centric nature of said baseball books meant that I'd want to play up the "‘70s kitsch" aspect of Redd Kross, as so many lazy journalists had done in the past. But we had a couple of Zoom calls that went really well, and they pretty quickly understood where I was coming from. Also, I think it put their minds at ease a bit when they found out that I'd played in the Jupiter Affect with Jason Shapiro, their current lead guitarist.
What was your approach to co-writing this book?
The funny thing is, I'd pretty much sworn off writing books at that point—there's so little money in it these days, and writing proposals ‘on spec’ felt like a waste of time and effort when I could be focusing on work that I'd definitely get paid for. But I jumped at the chance to do this one; Redd Kross are not only one of my all-time favorite bands, but I also felt like I intrinsically understood the mixture of joy, humor and love at the heart of their music. We also had so many weird pop cultural touchstones in common, and I knew from my handful of interviews with them over the past 25 years that we could easily riff on this shit for days at a time if given the opportunity.
Andrew Reich, who was still working on the final edit of his Born Innocent documentary, very generously shared an early cut of the doc with me, as well as some transcriptions from interviews he'd done for it about the band's early days—all of which were extremely helpful in refining the vision that I set down in the proposal.
Why did you decide to keep the oral history narrative to just Jeff and Steven McDonald?
Dan Epstein: I loved the early cut of Born Innocent that Andrew shared with me, but it also made me realize that I wanted the book to be a very different animal than the documentary. The film has a lot of different interview subjects weighing in on the Redd Kross story, many of them far more famous than Jeff and Steven. Having worked on documentaries myself, I totally understood why Andrew put these folks in the doc—the presence of "big names" can often make the difference in finding funding and distribution. But every time I saw Jeff and Steven onscreen, I kept wanting to hear more of what they had to say; they're both so funny and smart and thoughtful and articulate, and I found it fascinating how often their own individual perceptions of what happened differ. So, I knew going into the book that I wanted it to just consist of their voices presented in an oral history format—which would allow them to really talk at length without their thoughts being condensed into soundbites or short sentences—with me occasionally serving as narrator to place events in their proper context, and to move the narrative along where needed.
What is the most surprising revelation you had about the McDonald brothers and/or Redd Kross in putting the book together?
Dan Epstein: My interviews with Jeff and Steven were full of surprises, but the one that really blew my mind was Jeff's hilarious anecdote about getting punched out by former All-Star outfielder Ellis Valentine while they were both checked into the same rehab facility. I was a huge Ellis Valentine fan as a kid, and I've followed his post-MLB ups and downs, but the idea that his story might have overlapped with the Redd Kross story was something that would have never occurred to me in a million years. And of course, since most of my other books have been about baseball in the 1970s, I absolutely had to include that anecdote in the book—it was another cosmic reminder that I was absolutely the right guy for this project.
Can you talk about how you first discovered Redd Kross?
Dan Epstein: I was turned on to them in 1987 by my dear friend Bob MacKay, who was the bassist in my college band Voodoo Sex Party. He caught Redd Kross when they played Cleveland that summer, bought Neurotica, and was totally evangelical about the band and album when he returned to school that fall. He played me the record, and I was pretty much all-in from the moment on the title track where they referenced C.W. McCall's “Convoy.” I loved how the record mixed punk, pop, psychedelia and 70s hard rock—but I also really loved that the band seemed completely on their own trip. So many bands from that era who dabbled in older sounds came from a very specific place, like the garage revival bands who would rather die than play a lick that could have come from after 1966. But Redd Kross clearly didn't give a shit about such rules or restrictions, and just dumped everything they loved into the blender, and I found that really cool and inspiring. I knew they had earlier records, so I sought them out at my college radio station and taped everything I could find, including the Desperate Teenage Lovedolls and Lovedolls Superstar soundtracks.
I owe Bob a lot, just for the fact that he recognized (and convinced me) that I was good enough to play guitar and sing in a band with him, at a time when I was completely insecure about being “ready” to do either; that experience alone really altered the trajectory of my life from the age of 19 on. But turning me on to Redd Kross was also a pretty major favor, one I remain eternally grateful for.
As a longtime fan, what do you make of the multimedia Redd Kross celebration happening this year?
Dan Epstein: It's pretty incredible—I don't think I've ever seen the stars line up like this for a band I loved, and I certainly couldn't have predicted it when we first began talking about doing a book together. The Born Innocent documentary was far from finished at the time, and there were no plans at all at that point for Jeff and Steven to start work on a new album. Flash forward to early 2024, and they're finishing “The Redd Album” with Josh Klinghoffer at the same time that Andrew's doc is starting to do one-off screenings around North America, and I'm frantically trying to get them to read and comment on my final draft of the book before we send it off to our editors. It was an immensely stressful time for everyone, but I'm so happy that we were able to get the book done in time for this year's Redd Kross reappreciation festivities, and so proud that I've actually played a part in the renaissance of one of my all-time favorite bands.
Beyond that, though, I think that Redd Kross are a true force for joy in this world—and I think this world circa 2024 can use all the joy it can get. I know Now You're One of Us will make a lot of readers laugh (because I've certainly never laughed as hard while working on a book project), and I'm hoping it will impart some positivity and inspiration as well, because the Redd Kross story is ultimately about the value of love, self-belief and perseverance. Several people whose tastes and opinions I trust have already told me how much they love the book, and how much fun it was to read; to be part of something that makes someone happy, even just for 300 pages, is a pretty profound and wonderful thing.
I really believe that the self-titled double album is a career-defining collection. What are your thoughts on Redd Kross?
Dan Epstein: You know, if I have one regret about the book, it's that I didn't really have time to fully absorb the album before I had to hand in the book manuscript. The band was racing to finalize the mixes, running order and everything else in order to meet the June release date, so my first experience of the album was individual digital tracks—all of which I thought were fantastic—followed by mock-ups of the artwork; I didn't fully grasp the brilliance of the project until my album arrived in the mail and I was able to listen to all 18 tracks front to back on my turntable.
I absolutely agree that the album is career-defining—even the cover is a reference to the “White Album,” which little Jeff and Steven saved up nickels from Coke bottle deposits to buy in 1970—and I wouldn't argue with anyone who says it's their best. Neurotica may be my sentimental favorite, and Phaseshifter is my favorite Redd Kross album from a sonic and song-for-song perspective, but Redd Kross absolutely holds its own with both. And for a band to make a double-album that's this fucking great 45 fucking years down the fucking road? That's absolute fucking magic.
Favorite tracks from Redd Kross?
That keeps changing, but I've particularly loved “I'll Take Your Word for It” and “Terrible Band” since the first time Steven sent them to me; “The Witches' Stand” and “Emmanuelle Insane,” on the other hand, are ones that have really grown on me. I also think Steven really came into his own as a songwriter on this record; I'd say “The Main Attraction,” “I'll Take Your Word For It” and “Way Too Happy” are as good as anything on the album, and “Stuff” and “Lay Down and Die” aren't far behind.
Any favorite scenes from the Born Innocent documentary?
Dan Epstein: Yeah—the scene where Jeff and Steven talk about the former kicking the latter in the balls during the making of Third Eye. We reference that incident in the book, of course, but I think the version of the story that Andrew captured was funnier and more horrifying.
Any events planned around the release of Now You're One of Us?
Dan Epstein: Not as of the moment; the band's on tour in Europe until mid-November, so that's making logistics a bit tricky. But we're trying to make some things happen in LA, and there may be some combo book events/film screenings on the east coast. Stay tuned!
45 Glorious Years Of Redd Kross
Redd Kross never forgot that punk’s roots sprang from the seeds of ‘60s garage rock.
Order Our ‘Guitar Pop Journal, Vol, 4’ From Big Stir Records!
Really looking forward to the book and absolutely love the new album.
Two great minds!